Storing PM's
 

Does anyone have any suggestion for the best way to store PM's. I keep most of it in a safe deposit box and I have noticed the silver starting to tarness does this mean there is moisture in the safe? Or do I need to start wearing gloves when handling the metals. If I store at home any suggestings as to the best way to do it?

Re: Storing PM's
 

First and foremost - I would get it out of the safe deposit box........there are numerous situations in which you might not be able to get your PMs when you need them..........

This question has come up many times here at GIM - and I am going a series of suggestions, which I have gathered from numerous people here over the last couple of years - you might find a couple contradict - if som that is why.

Cheers!



IDEAS FOR PROTECTING YOUR INVESTMENT.........>>

Keeping gold in a safe deposit box is just asking for trouble because, the safe deposit box contents became the property of the failed institution. If a bank fails, or the government orders confiscation of gold, you will be allowed to go in and get important papers from your safe deposit box - but no cash or gold.

The Gold Confiscation Act of 1933 empowers the Secret Service with the power to confiscate assets in safety deposit boxes on and offshore. US Treasury Directive 416F expanded these powers. All cash, precious metals and cash equivalents can be confiscated.

A criminal act is not required to trigger these confiscations. The US Treasury only needs a written statement from the Department of Justice that your under investigation for acts that can be considered treasonous or seditious. What does this mean? Any act in violation of Patriot Act I or II. All that's needed is that you criticize the government through an advertisement, engaging in political commentary, or revealing criminal conduct of government (Statute 432 of the National Security Act).

With the expanded version of the Gold Confiscation Act, including gold bullion coins, and anything else of cash-like equivalent, almost anything is fair game. And if those assets are held offshore, then they are vulnerable as well.


Additionally, they are not insured by the bank, or the Feds. It doesn't happen often, but there are always a certain number of law suits pending for recovery of the VALUE of lost contents. People that don't visit their boxes on a regular basis have had them mistakenly drilled, and the contents auctioned off by the state.

BOTTOMLINE - If you are not holding it - you don't own it!

These suggestions are for keeping your gold and silver at home - comlpied from numerous sources. Keep in mind the cops say that the average home burglary only lasts 3 minutes or less. These guys aren't going to crack off outlet panels and stuff, they're going to quickly check your bedroom drawers and closet, grab the silverware and small electronics, and book. If they're pros who know you have PMs, and have set things up so they can take a couple hours to do a detailed search, you're going to have to be a lot more clever, of course.





The Best Place To Hide Money: Conversation With A Burglar
http://www.savingadvice.com/blogs/im...keyandlock.jpg

(NOTE - Burglars statistically spend 8 minutes or less in a home during a burglary.)

I had quite the interesting conversation this weekend with a person who happened to be a former burglar. It was great timing because I was wondering if something like the skid mark underwear for hiding money would really work. I also figured that if you wanted to know the best place to hide your money from a burglar, a former burglar was the person to ask.

I started off simply and was not surprised by the answer to the question �where is the best place to hide your money?�

�At the bank,� he said with a sly grin

When I rephrased and asked where the best place to hide money and valuables in the house would be if you had such items there, I was taken a bit by surprise by his answer:

�It doesn�t matter how clever you think you are or where you hide it in your house, if I have enough time, I would be able to find where you stash your valuables,� he said bluntly. He then explained that what was much more important than the actual place where you hide your valuables is that you understand a burglar�s motivations. Basically, he has two:

1. To steal your money and valuables
2. To get out of the house as quickly as possible with these goods

When you begin to think of it from this perspective, how you should hide your money changes a bit. Obviously, you don�t want to leave all your money in the places where the burglar will first look: dresser drawers, drawers by phones, desks, closets, a safe (if not bolted down), boxes, jewelry boxes, purse, etc.). That being said, you also don�t want to hide all of your money too well for the following reason:

�If I can�t find money and valuables in the normal places I usually find them, I would continue to tear the house apart until I found something. Remember, the first rule is to to steal money and valuables. We�ll keep looking until we find something.�

Your best strategy, then, is to actually leave some money in obvious places for the burglar to quickly find (the same applies if you keep all your money in the bank). This can not only save your other stash of money, but may actually keep the burglar from destroying your place as he looks for where you have hidden your money. If they believe they may have found the cash that you have in the house, they are much less likely to keep looking (remember, they want to get out asap). In the end, if you hide all your money well, you may win a moral victory in not letting the burglar find the money, but you�ll likely have much more damage done to your place that will end up costing you more in the long run.

The next obvious question was �How much money should you leave for the burglar to find?�

�It depends on the area where you live. If you are in a upscale community and only leave $100, I would assume there is more and keep looking. In a different part of town $100 would convince me I found all the money that was there and leave.�

When it comes to hiding valuables, his suggestion is to mark an envelope in an easily accessible drawer or with files by your computer with �Bank Safe Deposit Box� on the outside and a list of items on the inside. This will tip off the burglar that your most valuable items are stored at the bank and will discourage him from tearing up your house looking for them.

So the question of where is the best places to hide money still hadn�t been answered?

His number one recommendation for money was in toys in a young child�s room. As he explained, young children don�t have money, they have an abundance of toys and most parents don�t trust a child around money. Therefore, parents will rarely hide money there. In addition, when money is hidden, it is usually hidden away neatly and securely � a child�s room is rarely a neat place making it an unlikely place for money to be hidden. Plus with all the stuff in a child�s room, it is not someplace that a burglar can search quickly and get out (rule #2).

If you have a safe, it should be professionally bolted down so it can�t easily be removed.

If you leave some token money for the burglar to find in the places they normally look for money, then anyplace you wouldn�t normally consider a place to hide valuables will usually keep those valuables safe. The underside of trash cans, inside laundry detergent, inside false packaging (but only if the packaging appears real and is in the appropriate place - �When you find a Campbell�s soup can in the bedroom, you have a pretty good idea there is money inside�) were some examples he gave.

And my question of whether the skid mark underwear would be a good place to hide money?

He laughed. �I haven�t heard of that, but I doubt I would have touched something like that had I seen it.�

You also need to be smart about where you hide the money. He related one time a person had left wads of money inside the empty battery areas of electronics around the house. The problem was that although he had not found the hidden money at first, the electronics themselves were worth money and he took those to sell. Only when he got home and was checking that everything worked did he find the hidden cash. The person hid the money well, but not in a good place.

One last tip from a personal finance angle - if you do hide money someplace around the house, make sure that your significant other (or someone close) knows where your hiding place is. If something unfortunate happens to you and nobody knows where your hidden stash is, it�s unlikely that they will be able to find it if a burglar isn�t able to find it. Worse, it could very easily be accidentally thrown away depending on where it is hidden.


OTHER SUGGESTIONS FROM VARIOUS SITES AND SOURCES.................>>

Plant a decoy with not very interesting junk stuff in it and then hide your stash in plain sight, IE: something that blends in so well with the surrounding area it doesn't even register as having any importance. The junk stuff you put in a fancy "cherished" container will probley make any criminal think you are just a junk collector, not a collector of a stash.

Bury some in a flower pot!

Buy an old cheap, beat-up canister vacuum at a garage-sale, hide your PMs within. Stash it under a workbench or something. (One guy who did said - In ten years not even the wife has touched it.)

Put it in your freezer divided among various frozen food packages. Call it cold cash. Be sure the Freezer bags are not transparent, it would defeat the purpose.

Take a Big a$$ Turkey and stuff it with Bullion, put it in a Freezer bag and stuff in the back of the freezer... You could also make a huge bowl of Vegetable stew... Drop in a bunch of rounds, poor the Bullion stew into a Freezer bag and Freeze...

For the smaller amounts, sometimes the safest place is within a bunch of clutter! And split it up to be extra careful.

Maybe the silver could go in a grocery shopping bag buried in a box covered with old magazines or newspapers in the basement,......and especially effective if that "live" box is placed in a cluttered area with a bunch of boxes we all seem to accumulate.

The few gold ounces could go under a corner of a carpet or in a hollowed out book in your bookcase.

You can make a PVC pipe gold coin containers that look like plumbing fixtures.........and could be placed over a toilet in the upper tank area. Just be sure to remove it if you have any service done by a plumber!

Amazing things can be done with a toilet tank (use containers of some sort to keep the coins from making it to the bowl of course) if you have no better place. (who's gonna look there?)

Garbage pail, using a bag though. The bag is a liner for the garbage pail, put it in the bottom...how many robbers take out your garbage?

IF they are coins or rounds, flip over a table ( dining, coffee, etc, or even a dresser unit.. ).....measure in from the edges, go to home improvement place and buy a pc of 1/4" plywood.....also have them rip you enough 1" wide stuff to go around the perimeter of the plywood ( or buy some screen moulding that is about 1/4" thick and 3/4 wide, cut with a utility knife ). Glue the strips around the perimeter of the pc of plywood creating a hollow space the thickness of the perimeter strip under the plywood when laid strip side down. Lay your coins flat on the bottom side of the table, use some short screws to screw the plywood pc to the underside of the table covering the coins....spray paint to approximate the color of the table underside so it looks like part of the table.

If there are any base boards along the the wall, just pop one off, cut a hole as long as you want, then nail or (what I would do) get a tube of silicone and glue it back. That way you can pop it off easy enough when you need it.

If you have small amounts of gold, you can unscrew the plates of your phone jacks, and store it in there (plenty of room in the box). That's what I did when I lived in an apartment.

Buy a large can of coffee from a price club type place and put the precious metals at the bottom of the can and have the coffee be on top.

Two inch metal pipe with caps on the ends. Place eagles or rounds inside and seal tight. Bury near or under the water or gas line. A metal detector reading is deemed a false positive. If you do that, sleeve it inside a 3" plastic pipe so it will be easier to remove.

As a female buyer and collector the best place I can think to hide some PMs is in boxes of feminine hygiene products hidden in the back of the bathroom vanity. Layer the bottom with PMs and neatly place tampax or sanitary napkins on top. I bet you're going eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwww right about now! I just don't know many guys, and most burglers are probably men, who would go near those darn boxes!

Inside an old VCR - nobody would ever steal a VCR!

Inside a matress.

Under the gravel in a fish tank in the basement

Under the fake soil in a large fake plant


FROM A FOLLOW-UP DISCUSSION.................>>



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack London
A house safe can be good. Especially if you can mount it in the concrete of your basement. But keep in mind, almost any safe can be overcome by the right guy with the right knowlege and tools.

But the best advice I could give for hiding PM is to hide it with your tongue. It is very tempting to tell friends about your new love of gold and silver, but do not, DO NOT, tell them you have any. Make up a story. Tell them it is in a bank, tell them you bought into an ETF, or shares in a mining company. If someone know it is there, they will rip your house apart looking for it.

HO RESPONSE - Some great points there..........

Not only can a safe be overcome with a guy with the right tools, many safes get wheeled out of homes on dollies in just a few minutes, if not bolted down - and even then!

We were about to buy a safe, after weighing various options like size, weight, fire-proofing........had one all picked out, and then, the day I was going to pay for it, my wife said something which, oddly, I read an article about the next day........if you have a safe and robbers find it - they might well put a gun to your, or a family member's, head and tell you to open the safe! Then you have to decide just how much gold and silver your life is worth.

The advice given about holding your tongue is right on the money.....er.......gold and silver. The less people who know you have anything worth stealing, the better the chance no one will bother robbing you. But that having been said - people still break into houses and there is always the chance.

I tell anyone you knows I have any numismatic interests - and some do because I help others invest in PMs and certain numismatics - that I have them stored in a safe-deposit box, which eliminates them thinking there is anything at home. (I tell the rest its under 200 pounds of cow manure in the back yard - feel free to come and dig it out!)

For us, we doubled up our options by first scattering our metals around the house in various hiding places, tho few on that list......and no, don't ask where, I ain't about to tell you or give you a map! (IMO safe deposit boxes are ok until something ugly goes down, and one can't get into the bank - they close, or its weekend, or the government does something - do YOU trust the government? I DO! I trust them to f*ck me over any chance they get - so no deposit boxes for me thank-you.)

By scattering the metals around in various places - most robbers, once they find something of value, will race to get out and not keep searching long. In fact, I keep a little silver in easy access, right on my desk, so if they find it they will be gone.

Then, rather than a safe, we put in a really excellent home monitoring security system (ask if you are interested - they love when I recommend them)........if robbers DO break in - an alarm goes off - which will scare most away immediately - and the police are summonded automatically. (Same if anyone gets in and cuts the wires inside - tho coming in would set off the alarm anyway.) There are motion detectors that will also set it off, but are not set off by small pets.

Nothing is foolproof - no matter what steps you take, there are risks. You just do the best you can, and double, or triple, your odds.

That's how we doubled ours, various locations and a great electronic alarm system which - in the end cost less and was much more efficient than a safe - plus, if we move, we can take it with us. We tripled it with our killer parrot........who, in addition to skinning you alive, would make so much noise you can hear him for blocks screaming.

And, of course, we have a lovely storehouse of the fifth PM.........lead!

Re: Storing PM's
 

i just got a safety deposit box for my gold.

silver tarnishes.


gold doesnt.


trade your silver for gold.

Re: Storing PM's
 

I'd wait for the ratio to come down before doing that.

It's always best to be diversified.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Hello all, another newbie here! Great site IMO

This is an interesting thread for me, as I have only very recently begun buying PMs. I was turned on to Arron Russo & Ron Paul, read The Creature from Jekyll Island, and have been almost fanatical about PMs ever since.

While I don't have a massive stockpile yet by any means, I am starting to run out of places to safely stash everything. I have given serious thought to a safe deposit box, but can't really bring myself to trust banks a whole lot these days.

It seems that, while truly undervalued & a personal fave, silver has become the problem child as far as storage goes. I have about 50 ounces of silver for every ounce of gold. Seems like a good ratio to start off buying at, but now I'm tripping over stacks of SAE's & Mapleleafs! The small amount of gold I have thusfar is no problem to store.

Am I going about my buying the wrong way? Just about all of my silver is 999 rounds & 90% US coins. Would it be wiser to buy 10 (or even 100) ounce bars instead of all these coins? Seems that a few chunks would be significantly easier to store than dozens of coins in airtites & slabs. Or perhaps sell some of the silver & move towards a higher ratio of gold?

I have been fortunate in that I've never had a break-in at any one of the places I've lived. Still, one can never be to careful, & I am getting more concerned about protecting my "hoard." Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated!

~poo~

Re: Storing PM's
 

When my value of the metals in my gun safe got FAR beyond my ability to take the loss I rented a large safe deposit box. The gold made it easily enough but since I was sitting on more than 4 thousand ounces of silver then, only a fraction of the silver made it in. I solved the problem by trading most of the silver for gold, though that wasn't the primary purpose of the trade. Now almost everything is in there.

I find the probability of a burglary to be more probable that asset seizure. Even in the latter case, you would see it coming weeks if not months away and retrieve your stash.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Should you start buying larger bars of silver? I would first think of when it becomes time to sell. Think more buyers would trust the 90%/1oz. "rounds" over a 10 or 100oz. bar. There is many bars out there that are not all silver. Someone drilled them out........Already many good ideas for storing in thread. Perhaps split your stash up between Bank, Home spaces.

Re: Storing PM's
 

As I understand it, larger bars with a reputable name (such as Englehard) are trusted and easy enough to sell. If someone tried to "drill & fill" a bar, I believe the "ring" that silver puts off when struck would be substantially different and easy enough to recognize. I would not buy such a bar anywhere but at a local trusted dealer. Maybe they would be harder to sell somewhere like Ebay, not sure.

And I think I'm happier holding onto all my PMs myself. Perhaps some will go into a safe deposit box once I accumulate more. Until then, the fact that I am not shy about talking about my guns but speak to very few about my PMs should help keep my stash safe. As Master Ho alluded to, I always have more than enough lead to keep my Rugers fed! I have no problem making an example of anyone who tries to break into my home. Also, I live in a very well-armed neighorhood, lots of cops, firemen & bikers; very few are dumb enough to try a burglary around here. Most who have tried are either dead or in jail, so this area tends to be avoided by thieves. I trust it more than the banks.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Ideas:

Keep your pie hole shut!

In your basement - make a false cold air return for your heating system...these are often made by simply sheeting the floor joists with a treated heavy cardboard.....just build a very solid wooden box up there and cover to look like a cold air return. Perhaps sheet with galvanized sheet metal.

Buy a big eletrical sub panel box...mount it next to existing box on wall ...fake in some wires.....fill box with PM.

Get another water heater, gut it out, store PM inside....plumb it in so it looks real.

We have a million odd boxes in our home storing holiday crap....easy to hide in that crap.

In garage in old paint cans.

Get an old washing machine or dryer....gut out the motor and stuff from inside...leave drum....put the PM in the base and replace back cover...put it next to the current laundry equipment...or in basement or garage.

You can come up with lots of ideas if you think about it.

If you have a big safe and you are a reloaded....put a big sign on the safe: "I have 50 Lbs of Reloading Components in this Safe - cut at your own risk!" "Explosion will destroy contents....and you!"

Re: Storing PM's
 

I leave reasonable amounts of cash around my bedroom. I have a small closet safe, bolted to the concrete slab. Only $150, but the safe guy said it took him a couple of hours to physically break into one once - I use that as a decoy for other cash and wife's jewellery etc.

I also have a well hidden monster Chubb Europa series safe that is virtually impenetrable. It's 3 inches thick all around and weighs over 1000 lbs, that's where I keep the mother load. It's was professionally installed and bolted in two places through and under the concrete slab. Once I get my endorsed licence it will also contain a Glock 17 . . .

Re: Storing PM's
 

I just found this great website, GIM. Everyone is amazing! Thank you, Master Ho for the incredible list. (We are moving this year, which will be a good time to make some changes.) And Tennisrob for asking the question.

A large well-hidden safe (took 2 days for a locksmith to get into), an easily found decoy safe, sufficient valuables lying around, guns (we practice at a shooting range) and "Two 100-lb. Black Mobile Tactile Security Units". We live on an island where we all leave our doors unlocked. (I know, bad idea!)

I'm the wife (investor) and had to convince my husband of doing this (including selling our 'kitchen sink' to buy gold in 2002)! Of course, his eyes lit up when I mentioned buying the guns. (^_^)

I agree with trading the silver for gold after the ratio improves. (I am moving to Australia from the U.S. next year and hope the ratio improves before I have to trade silver for more gold to make the transport easier.)

Re: Storing PM's
 

"A large well-hidden safe (took 2 days for a locksmith to get into), "

Not a good idea. If you buy a safe do it anonymously.

Your locksmith now has your name and address.

Re: Storing PM's
 

One other consideration about safes........

We spent weeks researching them and then visiting numerous places around our area till we found one we liked..........we decided, where we can not hide one in the walls or under the floor, on a heavy, fire-proof floor-safe to hide in the closet.

The day before we went to pick it up, my wife brought up a valid point........if someone breaks into your house while you are home and sees the safe - they could easily put a gun to your head and tell you to open the safe or they will kill you or a loved one. ((Yes, I have guns myself, but lets assume, for what ever reason - sleep, shower, sex, whatever - they get in and you don't have the gun in your hands)).

How much is your gold and silver worth in terms of a life?
Yours or a loved one???

Oddly, right after she bought that up - I found a site on safes that specifically mentioned that as a reason NOT to get one. They suggested hiding things in other locations - dividing whatever it is up - so if they do find something - they leave figuring they got it all.

I know some here have, what I call, "fake safes" - meaning they have a safe and keep only a couple of coins in it with important papers in the hopes that, if they are robbed, the robbers will see those few coins, take them and leave.

Well, a decent safe is not cheap and, IMO, thats a goodly sum of money to pay for something you are using as a bluff.

Plus, a safe suggests, bluff or not, that you have something worth hiding or protecting.

IMO - best just to hide it like the article said, forego the safe's expense and weight, and hope if they break in that they don't find any or all your stash.

And, for the record - I have nothing to hide but DO have an alarm on the house, directly connected to the police - in case someone tries to steal my parrot!

Cheers!

Re: Storing PM's
 

Thank you for the advice! I guess it's good we are moving! (The electronic keypad was broken so we couldn't get into it - had to call a locksmith. The safe was so heavy it took 4 men to get it into the house. Again, so much for anonymity!)

We are moving to another continent, so will leave the safe here and use the advice given here: Alarm system on the house and hiding it in many places that no one would think of looking! And of course the Black Mobile Tactical Security Units are coming with us!

Re: Storing PM's
 

I always worried about fire when hiding coins around houses ....

Re: Storing PM's
 

Bud, hate to break it to you - but you can't buy a real safe at Wal-Mart. My safe had to be lowered into the house by crane - seriously! The truck was un-marked and the item in question was camouflaged. Once I changed that default combo, ain't nobidy gettin' into that sucker.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Yup, moving van, 4 big guys and some mechanical contraption for moving it ...

As for the fire question: Our safe is not only burglar-proof, it's also fireproof for several hours at twice the heat of a house fire (the kind that burns the house to the ground.) And yes, weighs about 1000 lbs. and well-hidden.

I do plan to do away with a safe when we move though. I love the idea of having enough valuables lying around that the burglar is happy to grab and leave, plus hiding PMs in many areas of the house: gutted out-type appliances, etc. (Not sure what to do about the fire issue in this situation, though, as CJul asks ...)

In addition, important to have some in a country other than the one you live in.

Re: Storing PM's
 

If you're in bullion, don't worry about a fire. You gold coins will melt, but still be a big ol' lovable lump o' gold. Ugly...but still gold. :D

Numismatics...another story. Hey! An adder to my list of reasons to stay away from numis... :bear_w00t: :bear_tongue:

Re: Storing PM's
 

Safest place I can think of is in a watertight container in your sump, under the gravel. If you run out of room, you just dig out a bit more space ... and since it's indoors, noone's watching where you're digging. The house can burn to the ground and it won't even burn paper buried that way.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Okay, that's what I was hoping. Valuable lump of gold. No Numismatics here!

Sump, good idea.

Re: Storing PM's
 

yeah, the idea of wandering round the charred ruins of my house chipping off a few bits of melted gold and silver from the various hidden places really appeals ....................

Re: Storing PM's
 

But it fits all the other requirements best. Lesser of the Evils? Best chance of survival? Best chance of not losing it to someone else?

- Gold is where YOU can get to it ... (if SHTF) ...

- Gold is well-hidden & dispersed so that you probably won't get shot ... (while being asked for the combo)

- A burglar isn't going to find much ... (Except what you intended them to find)
(Caveat: Unless you are on vacation and he/she knows that you have hidden bullion all over the house and has the time to 'treasure hunt')

* All you have to do in case of a fire is chip it off (And hide some of it in the sump so that when you get tired of 'chipping', you can 'dig'.)

* Get a good fire alarm connected to the fire dept. (& burglar alarm)

Hey, this is helping me sort it all out ... thanks! (^_^)

Re: Storing PM's
 

So is everyone saying a safe is a bad ideal even it is a 1000lb monster? Because I would think just stashing it here and there is a bigger risk if the buglar has time to spend looking through your house? A safe to me would be a bit overwhelming unless they are pros looking only for your PM.

Re: Storing PM's
 

Honest to goodness I was stashing my metals in the attic. No ladder.

Re: Storing PM's
 

I don't trust banks. In fact the branch I mostly use was robbed about 2 months ago. One look at their so called "safe deposit box" convinced me to get a my own safe. Nothing held at the bank is insured.

Fire is a big risk in a house, owning a safe is only a risk if someone puts a gun to your head - and that's pretty extreme. Once I opened it though, they'd get a 9mm surprise at very close range . . . secrecy about your PM's is your best defence, tell no one.

At least with my monster I know it's impossible to crack the locks (glass protected) or cut with oxy acetylene. To swipe it, they would have to demolish a wall followed by a complete set of internal stairs, jackhammer around it through 8 inches of reinforced concrete and even then, I doubt they could remove it since I saw how hard it was to get in empty. All that could only happen after they disabled the alarm and hoped that the neighbors didn't hear all the racket they were making or the smoke from the oxy torch . . .

Re: Storing PM's
 

Safes, HMMM...

Well, the FRONTS ARE extremely well built. BUT, the sides and back ARE NOT BUILT AS WELL AS THE FRONT.

Generally speaking, most safes can be cut into with a torch (plasma cutter - these are SERIOUS BURGLARS WHO KNOW ABOUT YOUR PM'S) in less than five minutes, IF you go through the sides or back.

If you mount it so that ONLY the front is accesible that means (short of being in a concrete closet) breaking through a wall to GET TO the sides or back.

NO SAFES are actually safe, IF THE CROOK HAS ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD. Say like you just went on an 'overnight' trip with your family. That generally gives most crooks all the time in the world to steal everything you own, and yes that is way more time than is necessary to break into your 1000 lb MONSTER safe.

Where CAN you hide your stash?

Learn how to sheetrock. Then start storing your PM's in wall's that are above your air handling return or where you have water pipes running through that particular wall. If ANYONE ASKS, just say "Yah, pipe broke. After I FINALLY got the water shut off, the water damage was so great that I HAD to replace that piece of sheetrock. (that's MY story and I'm sticking with it).

This OBVIOUSLY is NOT for people who like to 'handle' their wealth. Nor is it for someone who buys and sells frequently.

Also, THESE DAYS, burglars have started using 'metal dectors' to find your 'well hidden safe'. THEN they cut into the side or back and then YOUR POSSESIONS ARE THEIRS. This again assumes plenty of time to look everywhere. Once found, your stuff is theirs, IF THEY WANT IT.

That's WHY you should choose a location that as a matter of course HAS metal running through it. Most burglars aren't going to bother with a part of the wall that has water pipes, sewage pipes or return air ducts. Low probabilty of success.

Re: Storing PM's
 

First they would have to know where it is, second they would have to have a pretty good idea what's in it to make it worth their while, third they would have to defeat the alarm, fourth they would have to do serious structural demolition to access the sides, fifth cracking it is not really an option, sixth cut it is smelly, smokey, messy and obvious . . . all this in a suburban area for perhaps not a lot of gain. All the neighbors in our culdesac keep an eye on each others places when we're away. Unusual noise and activity would definitely be noticed.

If you are going to go to THAT amount of trouble you would have to be assured of what is in that safe. 99% of the time thieves have to have inside help and information from a company or bank employees to gain access to their safes. That's how they do it - it's fast and easy.

Silence about your stash is the greatest safety feature. People cannot steal what they do not know about. 99% of burglaries where I live are over in 4 minutes, that's the stats from the police. That's why you always leave some cash and other items around the bedroom so that the burgler is inclined to feel he has achieved something for his efforts and leaves rather than risk disovery.

Placing metals in walls is fine, but all bets are off if fire breaks out - I guess you would get "melt value". Plus, I just cannot be bothered hacking up my house.

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Do a search here on GIM. There was a family that purchased a house.

It had water damage in one of the walls (I think it was water damage - anyway). Stick and plaster walls.

So the guy cuts into one of them.

COINS start falling out. They enlarged the hole. HUGE AMOUNTS of coinage was discovered. Put there at least 50 plus years ago. The previous owners said it belonged to THEIR grandparents, which is who the house used to belong to before they passed. Lawsuits have been filed.

If you are worried about a fire, then put your PM's in a wall with plumbing in it. Chances are, if it's HOT enough to melt silver, then the silver solder of the plumbing joints (copper tubing) will most likely ALSO be melted and will douse your stash in water.

Messy for sure, but NOT a bad deal.

Besides, having ONE MORE SKILL IN YOUR KIT of skills is NEVER a bad thing.

At least, that's how I SEE IT.

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Agree, but still not a good idea to have your booty in one place. You have to have the obvious stash that will please the casual burgler but if some serious dudes get in while you're there, they will get into your safe one way or another.

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I have a "safe" place you all can leave with me!

Actually if you have high shelves like in the kitchen or bedrooms you could stash some up there.

Move part of your foundation, like the stairs or under the porch...

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Do you think living on the first floor of an apartment building cuts your chances of a home invasion?The apartment becomes more accessible thru the windows of course but the good part is that the first floor door is passed by everyone coming in and out of the building.I think a good front door and locks are important,do you have any suggestions about steel doors and high security locks?My safe is a Gardall 1411,small but sturdy,weighs 275lbs.

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This is the main reason I prefer safe-deposit boxes. The balance sheets of some banks are not so scary yet.

For a couple of months, my attic was worth more than my house. I have flexible work hours and work from home pretty often, but being away on a 5-day vacation under these circumstances is even worse than it sounds.

Do the due diligence and pick a bank that is less sickly than the others (hint: avoid Washington Mutual).

I also recommend midnight gardening, as well as creative dead-space usage.

There is no absolutely-safe place to put your stash. It is at risk anywhere. Spread the risk around, so that you can take the hit if any part of your stash is stolen.

BTW, a home safe full of cinder blocks -- and nothing else -- is not a bad idea.

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I think having multiple hiding places is a smart thing to do. These days, most modern mini-storage facilities have good security...including password protected entrances and exits, cameras that cover the entire facility, alarms on the doors, and good locks with no duplicate keys with management (the locks have to be drilled by a locksmith if you lose your key). With a couple of good safes bolted to the floor and a ton of stuff packed into the unit...it would be very difficult to find and steal your stuff.

I also think a bank safe deposit box is useful for high value objects at times. A good safe at home is convenient also...but not when you are out of town. I left a good chunk of metal in my home safe when I went on vacation for a few weeks, and toward the end of the trip I was totally preoccupied by worry about my goods...never again.

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I would not be so...trustful...when speaking about your, or any safe.

I worked as a locksmith's apprentice and I finally became a locksmith myself. I have opened many, many safes and vaults over the 6 yrs that I was employed there, and I will tell you, that I have opened safes/vaults in a short amount of time that you would not believe. I am talking about literally, $3000-$20,000 safes, and I am not joking.

I just want you to understand that if someone knows and wants what is in your safe, you are screwed.

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What particular model do you recomend that`s under 1000$ retail?I have a Gardall 1411,seems sturdy enough when compared to Sentry (I can`t believe how many call this POS a safe).

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And because you have 5 posts we must believe you...?

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Sentry safes are crap, but they do have somewhat decent fire protection. You can take a hammer, and with a single precise blow, the safe will open. For the key safes, they are pickable in record times.

Gardalls are a good safe, not high security (well, high security to people that have never seen a safe before) but they are good in fires. The problem with Gardalls is that their safes hinges are a weak spot, as well as the hub where the door and the safe meet. Take a crowbar, hammer one end into the crease between the door and the wall, and use it as a lever. The door will break open in most cases, no need to drill it.

Wilson and Megasafe are brands that are reasonably priced for what you get. I would recommend both brands, and their "high security" safes.

What you must question is IF someone will take the time to go through the safe opening process, and IF they do, will they know what to do? That is the question. If you have a safe that is less than 1000lbs, hide it very well, even if it means major modifications where you are going to store it. Limited access plus a quality high security safe equals burglars saying "screw that" and leave. If you want to keep your safe, you can maximize the security of that safe buy doing what I just described. At least you have surpassed the likes of Sentry safes...there were many people that had their sentry's broken into, and then they questioned me on how it could have it been broken into when it was a $300, top-of-the-line safe :banghead:

I also wanted to add, that ANY safe or vault can be solved, even a $20,000 vault. I dont want people to think that their $500 safe is crap, because most likely, its not crap. Some safes are better than others, even when the price tag is less (sentry is an exception to this).



Are you seriously relating my knowledge of SAFES and security on a PM forum, because of my POST COUNT? :thumpdown

But, to answer your question, I dont care if anyone believes me. I am simply sharing my experiences as a locksmith.

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You sound believable to me.I know that no safe,especially one within my meager means is burglar-proof.I think it would be smart to keep some heavy stuff like silver in it+some gold and hide the rest of the gold elsewhere.Do you think putting a Gardall inside a closet where it would be very difficult to use tools on it without tearing down the wall makes sense?Do I hire a locksmith to install it there (bolt it down)?Mine is 275 lbs and I could move it with a help of a friend+a hand truck.

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Antonio...what you said makes perfect sense. I would highly recommend putting it somewhere in which it would be difficult to try and break into the safe. At 275 lbs, that will be no match for two people, unless you do something to combat that (making it hard to work around).

You dont need to hire a locksmith. If you have basic tool knowledge and commonsense, you can do it yourself. I will give you a couple of examples of what we have done for people with safes.


1) There was an elderly woman who was VERY paranoid. I wont go in to detail, but trust me. She thought people were gonna come in and steal her safe. She wanted it out of sight. We cut a square hole in the first floor in her bedroom, installed steel brackets for reinforcement. We installed the safe in the floor, recessed. In the basement, we made a metal box with fire-resistant insulation around the safe which was hanging from the first floor. We fabricated some more steel brackets, and with some fastening, fabrication, and painting, we made the box look like a water purification unit, with copper piping going into and out of the box, with an actual LCD display on the box. It looked amazing. Back in her bedroom, we had some plywood and we glued a piece of the same carpet and cushioning on top of the wood, then placed the wood over the recessed safe. Everything worked out perfectly. We brought our manager to the house, and asked if he could find the safe. I even told him which ROOM it was in...he had NO idea!

2) Guy wanted his safe bolted in the ground. We explained that where he wanted the safe, someone could easily come in and cut the floor and take the safe right out the door, which was about ten feet from the safe. He told us to do whatever we wanted then. We came up with a plan, and he agreed to it. We made a reinforced concrete slab with rebar in his garage. We transferred the safe from his living room to the garage, then drilled through the concrete and installed very fat, heavy duty grade 8 bolts and attached the safe down. We then built an actual closet for coats and stuff around the safe (he already had a closet in his garage at the time). Everything turned out great and he loved how it turned out.

3. Guy had a smaller safe (400lb) and wanted it bolted down. He also wanted extra safety because of where the safe was (out in the open, in a auto garage). We cut out some of the old cement, and made up an area of reinforced concrete with rebar. Then we bolted the safe down, and then we built a small cinder-block structure around the safe. We had cinder-blocks right near the opening of the safe so nothing could be jammed into the crease between the door and wall. We bolted the cinder-blocks in place, then filled all the joining places with cement. While the safe still could have been drilled, it would have taken hours to remove the safe from our structure.

Just some ideas. Not that you need to get really crazy with your safe, but you get the drift. I installed wall safes too...they werent as popular as floor safes though.

Even if you do not bolt the safe, you can try and effectively hide it, like you said in a closet. One of my safes is in my closet, on the floor, and pushed to the right as far as the wall goes. The closet is about 15ft wide, and goes about 4ft back. With my clothes hanging and stuff, there is absolutely no way you can see the safe. You must get down on your hands and knees with a flashlight and really look to see it. Its not even bolted in, but the likelihood of someone seeing it and attempting to take it out of the closet is very slim.

Have fun with your safes! :wink:

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Dam good info on safes!!!


T

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If you're thinking about getting a safe, you need to watch this video:
And then you need to go to the forums at http://www.thefiringline.com and http://www.thehighroad.org and search for the posts of the user named a1abdj. He'll give you the straight talk on exactly how long you can expect certain safes to resist attack. I guarantee that you'll learn a lot of facts that will surprise you.

Thanks to his information, I decided against buying a $1000 "gun safe" with a combination lock and instead opted to buy a $100 stack-on gun cabinet. All I needed and could afford was something to keep honest people honest, and the $1000 safe wouldn't have provided any more protection against attack than the $100 cabinet I bought.

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I`m sorry I`m calling BS on this video.How were they able to pry open a massive safe with at least 2" in diameter bolts extending in all 4 directions in under 2 minutes?Not to mention pushing the safe to lie on its back as if it was an empty cardboard box???The thing is supposed to weigh at least 1000lbs.Breaking into a high security safe is doable but far from easy.

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Because most gun safes in that price range are made like sandwiches: 10 or 12 gauge steel(sheet metal) on the outside and inside, with a gypsum board or concrete filling between the layers. If you don't like prying the door open, you could just as easily take a sledge hammer and beat a large hole in the side in about five minutes.

Any safe can be broken into if it's attacked long enough; all you can buy is time. There are real safes that can withstand attacks for 15 or 30 minutes, but you won't find them at Sam's Club or your sporting goods store. When you buy a safe there, you're should realize that you're only buying a couple of minutes. If you need more time, you need to buy more safe.

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You are talking about gun safes.These guys didn`t mention that.Gun safes are like Sentry,total crap.The safes in the video look like jewelry safes,you can`t knock one down with one shove.

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these are nice for storing coins. You can fit 60 rolls of 90% halves into each one and then stack them into the wall frame of your house.

I read about this on another forum.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190154699509

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LOL what did I tell you? One of the main ways for someone to open a safe, with no direct safe knowledge is on the crease where the door and wall of the safe meet.

One of the easiest ways of preventing this, is to put the side where the crease is (usually where the opening lever is), to the wall, bolted down. SO, your hinges would be on your right when looking at the safe, and the door would swing open from left to right. Since the wall would be right there, it would be very difficult to use leverage to open a safe because of the lack of room.

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My house was burglarized several years ago. I had an alarm system, but the big horn which would have alerted the neighbors malfunctioned and didn't work, although there was a slightly shrill tone on the keypad which went off. Thief entered through a window and cut his hand. I had iron deadbolt storm doors with keyed locks, so he couldn't exit out the door. There were drops of blood on the floor everywhere he went. Apparently spent most of the time in the bedroom. He took a pillowcase and stuffed a jewelry box in there (nothing of any value in there, maybe 1 silver dollar). He did find a box in the nightstand that had a pellet pistol that I use for practice (my worst loss aside from having to clean up the blood). He found my locked briefcase, and tried to open it, but apparently abandoned it since it would have taken too long. My cheapo Wal-mart gun safe was in plain sight, but he totally ignored it. Also went through the dresser drawers and dumped everything out. So overall, he didn't get away with much. The alarm did help in that he knew he didn't have much time. I think he must have cased my house and knew that was a time of day I almost always was gone.

So the jewelry box was an effective decoy, and he took the bait. He must have just grabbed it hastily and didn't look inside to see that there wasn't much of any value.

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The safe depicted in the video was indeed a general storage safe, probably bought at the stores shown on the video. This type is not made for storage of
high value stuff. It had very few features of higher quality safes. Yes, any home safe can be broken into if given the right tools and time. However, if your safe is at least 10 gauge steel with reinforced doors and sides and at least a dozen bolts and bolted to the concrete floor it would discourage even the most determined amateur. When you add weight (PM's, coins, ammo, weapons) to a quality built heavy duty safe it becomes even more of a deterrent.

Shop wisely and remember....quality (safety) over size and price.

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Me and a friend talked about this once.... going to wal-mart or wherever, and getting one or more of those cheapo safes they have there, and filling them with some bricks and washers. Then you just make sure there's no tools around that could easily open them. Any dumb punk that comes in would expect there was something great inside, not be able to get them open, and carry them off--leaving everything else.

-end-

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OR, you could buy the cheapo safe, and put something in it (guns/ammo/important papers/photos/anything) and actually make it useful. I dont see why you would spend ~$500 on a safe and put bricks in it...?

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I have a sentry firesafe, I use it to protect important papers from fire and water damage

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My cheapo safe was only ~70 FRN.

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One important thing we must remember is that we are the weakest link in the system.

Some robberies by blacks have been in the news where they hold you at gunpoint and force you to open the safe or go to an ATM and take out the cash and give it to them. It doesn't matter if you have any thing valuable on hand because they know you can get them some money. A lot of these robberies end up with the person being shot and killed because if nobody is left to tell the story it is much harder to figure anything out.

Here's another fact, nearly all robberies with the exception of a few, go unsolved. The fact of the matter is that there is either not enough clues to go upon or the police just don't have enough resources to work on these cases (as they try to stay focused on the more important ones like murder, etc.)

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Actually the police focus on more important things like writing traffic tickets. Solving real crimes doesn't generate them any revenue.:rant:

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Couldn't you just take a sledge hammer to the wall? I mean, bad guys aren't going to care how badly they damage your property.

Anyone ever use burglar alarm companies like ADT etc.?

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How much more silver could you buy with the money you spend on that safe?

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What happened to dinarguy?I can`t find anything even remotely incriminating in his posts.